Running Vancouver – Episode 3

Truth be told, I’ve been nervous about this episode {Jeff can confirm that!} — and even more so in the last 48 hours. The focus of this week’s episode is personal challenges.

I’ve been very lucky since making the decision to learn to run. I’ve had minimal injuries — battled an adductor strain last year and a few issues over the last few months, but honestly nothing that major. I haven’t had shin splints, a stress fracture or knee problems. I haven’t had anything that’s put me on bed rest and no one has told me I can never run again.

Missed a race? Sure. Legs been massive sore? Yep. Fallen on my face? Definitely. At the end of the day, that’s part of the journey. With good comes bad. There’s no sunshine without rain.

“If one could run without getting tired I don’t think one would want to do anything else.” – C.S. Lewis

When Jeff and I chatted about this episode, I knew we needed to talk about Scoliosis. As much as it’s not a large part of my day to day, it’s a huge part of who I am. Running has forced me to become a lot more body aware. My spine was fairly well behaved as I progressed from 0 to 10k, but lots has changed as I’ve moved from 10k to 22+k.

My body took a beating at the Carlsbad Half Marathon {not even mileage built up} and I lost a lot of the momentum I had from last year. I went from running 20k comfortably to being unable to run a minute without pain. Over the last 6 weeks I’ve learned that the pain has been entirely due to lack of strength. My rotation affects every step I take and running adds to the muscle imbalances throughout my body. My shoulders and arms sway differently. My hips are uneven. Each leg strikes the ground with a different amount of force.

Running Vancouver: Episode 3Last year I just ran. Ran and ran and ran. The goal was always farther and faster. Quad action all the time. This year is different. I’ve learned about slow runs — whoa, slow runs. I’ve been working on efficient 5k’s — and nothing longer! I’ve learned the importance of core strength, glute strength and ankle strength {thank you Gastown Phyiso & Pilates}. I’ve learned that I  have to listen to my body and go with the flow.

Some days will be good, some days will be bad. You can’t win them all. All that advice I give everyone else and never take to heart. :)

I’m not nervous about completing the BMO Half Marathon — I’m worried about my time {seems silly saying that out loud}. I told myself I would complete a sub 2:00 half marathon this year and for whatever reason then told myself it should take place on May 5th {perhaps because I’m a competitive beast}. It’s early in the year to take 12 mins off my PB and {insert transparency here} I don’t feel my legs are where I need them to be to hit the goal. My legs have been making progress and my core & glutes are finally working – thanks to Msquared {the duo, Mark & Melina} at Gastown Physio & Pilates. I’m getting stronger every week… I can feel it and it’s exciting. Is 3 weeks away too soon for that sub-2:00? Maybe, maybe not. We’ll know for sure on race day. :)

With the addition of personal challenges to this web video series, my fear was that Scoliosis would now be my crutch. I always talk about Scoliosis publicly — but rarely talk about how Scoliosis and running intercept. I felt like I just gave the world my ‘out’ if I don’t hit my time goal. Crazy talk I know — but someone out there must get where I’m coming from. Picking up what I’m putting down?

I’ve never been treated as the ‘patient’ and I don’t feel like now is the time to start. Scoliosis has made me a smarter runner. It speaks up {usually through pain and discomfort!} when I’m not taking care of me. It has made me so appreciative of breath and on so many runs, it’s given me the motivation to battle it out. In the long-term, I know that all the “extra work” that I do every week {physio, pilates, massage, acupuncture, etc} will make me a stronger runner. People tend to look at alternative therapies as a pain in the ass — they are 100% my normal, my every day and my forever,  and for that I feel grateful.

Forgot about farther and faster — I need to stay centred on physical & mental strength.

We all have our challenges — the key is not let them define us.

Learn more about Sean, Karl and my journey:

‘Running Vancouver’ is a 6-part web video series following 3 local runners journey to the BMO Marathon & Half Marathon. Episodes air every Monday morning on Check out Episode 1 to meet the runners and Episode 2 to learn about our training.

PS – Major gratitude and run love to my practitioners: Mark, Melina and Chris. Spending time with you is the highlight of my week. Thank you for the constant support, laughter and for occasionally talking me off my crazy train. 3 weeks till race day.

30 Day Yoga Challenge

30 Day Challenge at Yaletown YYOGA

The end of August means the end of YYOGA’s 30 day challenge! I don’t know what I was thinking when I thought this was a good idea a month ago — oh wait, I know what I was thinking… “Hey you know how you have 922592058025 things on the go right now, why don’t you pick up another?” Yay! :/

So anyways, I committed to the 30 day challenge for the last month of summer. Yep, a busy fricking month. Life has been chaotic. Days have been spent with clients. Nights and weekends have been packed with way too much fun. I ran my first half marathon and since it finished, I’m training for my next. Beach. Sun. Friends. Run. Work. Weekend away. Friends. Run. Sun. Work. Work. Work. Run. Sun. Run. Work. Sun. Friends. Run.


It ended up at the bottom of the list. As per my update at the 20 day mark, I got off to a great start! 3 classes in one day! Never thought that was possible. Since then though…

  • August 1 – Core with Aili, Yoga Barre with Alex, Power with Clara
  • August 2 – Power with Aili
  • August 3 – Power  with Clara
  • August 6 – Power with Troy
  • August 8 – Power with Troy
  • August 11 – … first half marathon! 
  • August 15 – Power with Troy
  • August 20 – Power with Troy
  • August 24 – Power with Yeva, Yin with Troy

… bringing this 30 day challenge to a total of 11 classes! Woohoo and lame all at the same time.

I had intended to finish my last week with a bang — full on yoga, all week long. Instead I went to LIVE at Squamish with Miss Katie, ended up having a little too much fun — and killed a few days recovering. Hello pizza. Hello Bachelor Pad. I went from hangover central, straight into a bout of the flu.

Body was trying to tell me something I think… :)

The positives… I have never done 11 yoga classes in one month, so I think that’s a win. I also did enough classes so that the pass paid for itself, another win. I tried out a few new teachers and types of yoga… win win. I’m more flexible. I’m stronger. I feel like I’m more connected with my breath. I now know how to set myself up for success before getting to yoga — hello water, hello eat something. Win win win win.

The only negative is that I’m guilty of overcommitting once again. {When will I learn…!}.

So what’s next?

I know that yoga is good for my soul.

Not in a fluffy, I so need to lay on the floor, space out and think about nothing. {I hate that part.}

Rather I know that yoga can support my mission in becoming stronger — both mentally and physically. Yoga has already made a difference to my training and I can only imagine that will get better if I keep it up. I feel way more centred on my breath when I run and my body awareness  has increased ten fold.

I am very motivated by progress — and in a short 30 days I have already seen myself and my body moving forward. I like the routine of yoga… figuring out what classes I will go to this week, getting excited about a teacher and having a hot shower after some sweat time on the mat. My heart feels full when I know I’ve had a good class {sometimes your head just isn’t in the game} and it sets my day/eve up for success.

Just like an evening run, a late night yoga class helps me sleep like a baby. I feel calmer and more balanced.

Tomorrow Katie and I are off to Power in the morning and Yin at night. And tomorrow I will buy an annual yoga membership… like whoa. {Need to do one class a week in order for it to be worth it — I think twice a week is probably achievable.}

Shoulder Stand – August 2012

I know that me and yoga aren’t done. We have work to do!

I need to continue to work on my breath. It will no doubt keep me more sane {which is good for me — and everybody}. I want to rock out my running goals. Yoga will help me be a lean, mean machine! I really want to strengthen {and commit to} my spine. My Scoliosis will thank me over and over again. I’m determined to get better at shoulder stands, inversions and crow. I also need to figure out what limitations my rods will create for me as the poses become more advanced — if anyone knows, hook me up!

I’m officially in a relationship with you, body. 

PS – Oh and by the way, today I bought a skipping rope. Flash back to grade 5. Can’t wait to incorporate it into training!

One Step at a Time

It’s been a tough few days. Actually let’s exchange tough for terrible — and ‘It’s been a terrible few days’ with ‘I’ve been an emotional basketcase since Tuesday.’

Last Friday I had my final race prior to my 1st Half-Marathon. The plan was that I’d do the North Shore Longest Day Race at UBC — and I had two new race friends to do it with, Shea and Melissa! My last long run was last Wednesday. A morning run in Stanley Park, it was slow and steady, somewhat meh. I was registered for the 10K race on Friday, but for whatever reason on Wednesday I downgraded to the 5K. Something in my gut told me I should.

We arrived at the race disorganized {gah, traffic} and pretty much ran to the finish line as the gun went off. I started off the race with a 4:30/km pace {I really really really had to pee} and slowed down to about a 6:30 pace at the 2km mark. The whole race my body wasn’t moving the way it should have been. It was my most difficult 5K to date and I knew that something was wrong.

As I crossed the finish line, I felt my whole body shut down. I was limping and ridiculously stiff. I thought to myself… you’ve been tired and stressed out lately. It’s ok to have a bad race.

The next day I toppled over as I got out of bed in the morning. My left leg filled with pain and I thought — oh no you didn’t. Swore up and down, thinking how on earth will I be able to complete Seek the Peak! Yes I was planning to race the 16km beastly hill hike from Ambleside up Grouse Mountain — don’t ask me what I was thinking when I registered for it… Runners high? Likely because Rethink Breast Cancer is close to my freakin’ heart.

I reluctantly skipped the race and had a low key weekend — generally those words don’t enter my vocabulary. I RICE’d it up. Oh yeah baby, I’ve learned all about the RICE method since I’ve taken up this sport. I took back-to-back anti-inflammatories and stretched out these pretty bones all weekend {which totally reminded me  — and not in a good way — of back in the day Scoliosis issues} seeing absolutely zero improvement.

On Tuesday morning, I limped my way into my physio’s office, Dave at Restore Physiotherapy by the way. He was expecting a super-amped-for-the-Half-Marathon young lady and instead he found a worn down, stressed out, anxious…{and I’ll hesitantly say} runner. We reviewed the past week, he checked me out and continually looked at me with a bleak look. My left adductor longus was VERY unhappy. I had my most painful IMS treatment to date, the tight monster had taken over. My left leg failed all the tests he usually puts me through. Pathetic squat. Pathetic. We talked through the options for the Half-Marathon… run the 21.1k, run/walk, walk, skip out, etc. He gave recommendations and told me that I needed to make the final decision. At lunch, I limped my way to Performance Health Group with my massage therapist, Cynthia {who is absolutely divine and one of the best therapists I have ever been to}. Again, the bleak look. 90 mins of heaven — and hell later, we had talked through every option for the Half-Marathon, the good and bad with my body, electrolyte replacements, support systems and more.

First 5K. First Race. First Medal.

The consensus was that I shouldn’t run the Half-Marathon.

I spent the day onsite with a client, doing everything possible to stay distracted and the moment I walked in the door after work, I burst into tears. Like crazy levels of tears, not like a pansy little girl cry. Melted into a puddle.

So what’s the big deal?

Last December I decided that I would take up running. Not for any particular reason other than I knew it would be good for my head. I set a goal of a Half-Marathon in June. Why? Because I didn’t know that 10K’s existed… for real. :| I registered for some races to keep me on track with my goal and to ensure I wouldn’t fall behind on my distance.

January 17, 2012 was my first run EVER — and on a treadmill, what on earth was I thinking?! Oh and by the way, it was terrible. On January 22, I completed my first race, the Chilly Chase 5K in Vancouver. It POURED with rain — crazy sideways terrible rain. I finished 23/39 with a time of 32:54. I had been reading John Stanton’s book and it reinforced, focus on finishing, don’t focus on time. So I finished! I was passed by what looked like an 8 year old, really wasn’t ok with that. Over the next month, I ran pavement in Vancouver, trails on Salt Spring Island and the beach in Costa Rica. I learned that hill training helps you become a better runner and that beach running is beautiful and terrible all at the same time.

Harry’s Spring Run Off

March 25 was my 2nd race: Harry’s Spring Run Off 8K, a charity run for prostate cancer. Haley joined the Half-Marathon training bandwagon and it was our first run in Stanley Park. Beyond terrified. I never thought I was going to make it past 6k; thankfully I randomly ran into Tory and she coached me to the finish.  8km, 54:06, 329/428 gender, 70/87 age. I also felt TERRIBLE and thought I was going to vomit as I passed the finish line. This was an important race because I learned that I can’t stomach gatorade. Also learned that I love Blue Monkey Coconut Water.

April 3rd marked the FIRST DAY of my life that I’ve EVER seen some sort of muscle definition. Big day. On April 11th I ran my longest distance {in the rain to boot}; 10.66 km, 1:12:07. April 15th was my 3rd race, the Vancouver Sun Run 10K {with 50,000ish other people!}. Finished in #15,732rd place at 1:04:32, 6138/21497 gender, 1447/3594 age. PB!! Learned a lot about crowds that day. On April 23rd, I hit PB 8K, 50 mins and PB 10K, 1:02. On April 24th, I experienced the most stunning sunset run — a red sky that blew my mind.  April 29th marked the Times Colonist 10K in Victoria. On this run I learned the importance of peeing pre-race, dealt with a 4 min potty line up at the 4k mark. Unofficial results {took off the potty line up}, first SUB-60 10K, 59:57. 2706/5924 gender, 378/834 age. Hurrah!

Strong is the new skinny. :)

On May 6th, I volunteered at the BMO Vancouver Marathon. My job was to cheer on the participants in their final 200m towards the finish line. It was AMAZING to watch so many different types of people cross the finish line — there was no consistent… EVERYBODY RUNS. On May 7th, I registered for the Rock n’ Roll Half-Marathon in Seattle and the Lululemon Seawheeze Half-Marathon in Vancouver. If thousands of people can do this, I can do this. May 21st I achieved my longest distance to date, 15K, 1:35:10. It was my first “I’m a machine” type of run. I also learned that you shouldn’t run in Stanley Park at night {the only time that Richard has ever given me bad advice}. My 5th race was the Run for Water 10K on May 27th in Abbotsford. We had no idea where Abbotsford was when we registered, FYI. Took gatorade {by accident} instead of water from a volunteer — all shades of grey at the finish line. Ended up with 10k, 58:41! PB! 200/567 gender, 65/151 age.

Soaked to the bone, but stoked I hit my first 10K.

June 5th I hit a total distance of 200km and PB 5K 27:27. Holy freaking cow. 200 kilometres. June 9th was the Starbucks Run for Women 10K and my worst race to date. Disorganized, late and started the race 12 mins after the gun went off. Uh huh… 12 mins. Played catch up which stressed/psyched me out. Trail race which I’d never done. Finish line time was 1:06:25 at 10.8km distance. Passed 339 women to make it to 128th place. As I started late, unofficial results came back at 54ish minutes and FOURTH PLACE in my age group. Eeeep. And that brings us to last week… June 16th, my 7th race, the North Shore Longest Day Race 5K.

No Half-Marathon?

Before last Friday, I felt ready for the Half-Marathon. My distance was close enough to where it should be. I had been killing my races and I knew that the only thing I needed to ensure was that I wasn’t quick out of the gate. I learned the factors that contribute to a good race vs. a bad race. I learned how a negative split can help me. I learned when I run best — in the evening, in the rain. I learned that a 5K is just as important as a 15k. I learned the importance of stretching, strength training and conditioning. I memorized the elevation map, learned about pace bunnies and found an electrolyte replacement that didn’t stir the tummy {Grape Ultima FTW}.

I was nervous — but ready.

On Tuesday, I felt like my world fell apart. Dramatic I know.

I never expected much from running. I hated it for the first 2.5 months. Hated it. Since starting this journey, I have learned so much about myself and my body. Running has been my Eat. Pray. Love. Running is my outlet, a place to escape from the world and have time to myself. Running {and training probably} has made me very aware of what I put in my body. I’ve always been vegetarian-ish, but since starting running I’ve stumbled into the world of vegan, raw food and green smoothies. I sleep better. I feel better.

In 1997, I was diagnosed with Adolescent Idiopathic Scoliosis. Two years of bracing and an out of control spine later… I had a Spinal Fusion with Instrumentation at the BC Children’s Hospital. In my university years, I broke the bottom of my rods tobogganing. Up until January 2012, I felt weak. For my entire life, I have felt weak. Growing up, I was the definition of “skinny {ph}at.” I can eat whatever I want and maintain the same weight. I have a slim frame, which people default to strong — so far from true. I regularly wear a pair of pants from Grade 10.

For the first time in my life, I feel strong.

My Spine. Photo Credit: OfStorms Photography

I am a big believer in everything happens for a reason. For whatever reason, I stumbled down the path of running. For whatever reason, I actually stuck with it. When I reflect back on the last few months, I shake my head at what I have achieved. Not in a million years did I think I was capable of running 1km, let alone more than that. Since the beginning I’ve always had it in my head that the Half-Marathon is the end date. On June 23, 2012, I would move onto the next goal.

After a super reflective week and a hell of a lot of support, I now know that I am not done.

This is just the beginning.

My body has decided that it’s not ready for this week’s Half-Marathon and I have accepted that. {Just don’t mention the words race, half, marathon, run, running, lululemon or gatorade for the next 3 days or you may need to give me a hug.} I’m not prepared to be further injured, or god forbid, be out of commission for months on end. I haven’t run in one week and I feel terrible. Sore, stiff, exhausted, anxious and impatient. I can’t wait for my feet to be back on the pavement. I can’t wait till I heal up. I can’t wait to get back out there.

But I will wait till my body tells me it’s ready.

I no longer have to run. I truly want to run.

Surround yourself with who you want to become.

This week I was 100% an emotional disaster. I cried at the mention of the Half-Marathon {many of you likely regret wishing me good luck on the upcoming race ha ha}. I had 3 amazing men reach out to this week and I’m beyond grateful for the advice.

  • Derek – Thank you for talking me off my crazy girl ledge. Thank you for rampaging on me over text, making every attempt to make me realize that I need to be proud of what I have achieved. Thank you for using so many f-bombs, telling me it’s ok to be an emotional psycho case, explaining how running/training/athletics is very much an internal sport — and telling me that I can’t stop running.
  • Jeff – Thank you for being the first person to reach out and ask what was wrong. Thank you for explaining your past injuries to assist me in further understanding training and injury management. Thank you for the positivity, support and for making me realize that running will be a career.  Thank you for teaching me that running is more than a race {music to my ears} and introducing me to the running community.
  • Richard – Thank you for picking up the phone when I pleaded for a friend. Thank you for understanding how Scoliosis fits into my world and for reinforcing that I need to take care of me. Thank you for talking me through every option and hearing me out. Thank you for listening — you were patient, sincere and I feel so lucky to call you my friend.

Big love to Dave at Restore Physiotherapy and Dr. Nielsen & Cynthia at Performance Health Group.

Thank you to the girls {Jen, Reagan, Monique, Katie and Michelle} for your support this week — and always. Thank you to my running cheerleaders: Dawn, Cecilia, Miranda, Mike, Shannon and Jeremy. Thank you to my team at UrtheCast for being understanding and supportive.

And lastly thank you to my running partner in crime, Haley. Proud of you darling and I know that you’re going to kill it at the Half-Marathon this weekend — finish baby finish.

In 5 months I have:

  • Ran: 240km
  • Completed: 37 runs
  • Raced: 7 times
  • Burned: 12,347 calories
Achieved personal bests:
  • 1K: 4:34
  • 1 mile: 8:04
  • 5K: 27:27
  • 8K: 47:49
  • 10K: 58:41
  • 15K: 1:35:10

Kinda crazy.

My name is Jillian Walker and {for the first time ever} I am a runner.

PS – Sometimes you have to move backward, to move forward. Physio rehabilitation begins next week. The hope is that my 1st Half-Marathon will be the Lululemon Seawheeze in beautiful Vancouver, British Columbia. T-50 days.

will to survive

It’s been 9 years since I walked out the doors of the BC Children’s Hospital.

I was 18 years old.

I remember not feeling ready to leave, but they kept on telling me. It’s time. It’s time…

Not a day goes by that the BC Children’s Hospital (BCCH) is not present in my heart. I can’t define my moments there as good or bad — they just shaped me into who I am today.

My first time at BCCH was unplanned. I was 12 years old and it was Christmas Eve. Somehow I ended up getting staff infection above my right eye. A disgusting golf ball of an eye formed, I couldn’t open it and the doctors were worried about me losing my sight. I was rushed to Vancouver for emergency surgery. I remember being in the Emergency Room (likely totally losing my cool) and they came by with a Gund teddy bear. They were doing everything possible to ensure that all the children still had a bright Christmas. They had me confined for days and about 10 days later I was released. I was in Grade 6 and officially had the lamest Christmas break ever. We celebrated Christmas in late January that year and I remember feeling ridiculously self-conscious. My eye took a long time to heel and I wore a big ass white bandage over it to keep it clean. Photos were my nightmare.

The second time I visited BCCH was to enter a formal relationship with the outpatient Scoliosis clinic. Just a few months after my surgery, I was diagnosed with Adolescent Idiopathic Scoliosis. I was at a fundraiser for the BCCH on Salt Spring Island and a stranger came up to me and said “You have Scoliosis. You need to go to the doctor.” I looked at her like any crazy child might and was like…. “Right.” I reported back to my mother and we made an appointment with my GP. Well guess what… I owe a lot to that random woman. In 1997 I was diagnosed and in May 1999, I underwent a spinal fusion with instrumentation. It can also be explained as they sliced me up from my neck to tailbone and attached steel to my spine. It took 12 hours and involved rods, screws, hooks and a bone graft. I have next to no memory of the days that followed. About three days later my Orthopedic Surgeon walked in the room… I remember looking at him and being like — “Why did we do this again?” The pain was horrendous. If we hadn’t done the surgery, I wouldn’t be alive to speak of it today.

My spine had progressed from 0 to 65 degrees in less than 18 months.  In the days post-surgery, I learned to breathe (my lungs had suffered), sit up (oy… poker straight back), walk (I grew a few inches) and re-learn activities like climbing stairs.  In the months post-surgery, I learned to adapt to my new way of life — pain, inability to sleep, general neuroticism :) and a lack of self-confidence that came from a mighty big scar. I was told I could carry no more than 10lbs at a time (no textbooks!) and no contact sports for two years. Things weren’t always bright back then but hell did I learn a lot.

Every time I was told I had to go back to the BCCH for follow-up and Scoliosis scans… I got excited. Slowly but surely I was making progress. I loved my surgeon, Dr. Stephen Tredwell, and the orthopedic team. They were my bright lights throughout the whole process. They motivated me to strive high and put expectation on me to continue working, attend university, start my career, have a family, etc. They wanted to ensure that I would consider myself no different than anyone else, to take what I had learned from the BCCH and this experience and use it to help me grow.

In the years that followed, I checked in with the BCCH less frequently. Part of me was terrified for the day that I would be released from their care. Being a children’s hospital, they generally only keep patients until the age of 19ish. If you require more treatment, you’re transferred to an ‘adult hospital.’ Shortly before my last appointment, Dr. Treadwell, advised that he no longer needed to care for me. My spine was stable.

I sent Dr. Treadwell updates, letters and Christmas cards for years. I had – and have – utmost respect for the man. He is Head of the Pediatric Ortheopedic department at BCCH and everyday he is teaching medical students and colleagues how to treat spinal deformity and pediatric trauma. Everyday he spreads light and love to children around British Columbia.

So what brought this all top of mind tonight? A singer, songwriter and guitar playing machine, Calvin Locke, tweeted out a link to the video, asking followers to take 10 minutes and give it a watch:

The video tells the story of a young lady named Logan Johnson-Lay. In 2005, Logan was diagnosed with cancer and since then has had 4 brain surgeries and 153 chemotherapy treatments and 31 doses of brain and spine radiation.

In 2010, Logan was chosen to be the Champion Child of the BC Children’s Hospital Foundation – Child Run. It was the run’s 25th anniversary of raising money for childhood cancers and Logan’s 5th anniversary since her diagnosis.

Calvin will be on the road across Canada over the coming months and will be donating all album proceeds from iTunes to a charity of Logan’s choice. One of Logan’s friends recently passed away… a young lady by the name of Megan McNeil. When Megan was 16 years old, she was diagnosed with cancer and began treatment at the BCCH.

Just by reading a few of Megan’s blog posts tonight, I can tell that she was an incredible woman. Megan started a non-profit called Will to Survive. The goal is to assist families who have children battling cancer. In January 2011, at the age of 20, Megan passed away.

All proceeds from Calvin’s tour will support Megan’s legacy by being donated to Will to Survive. Calvin’s album is titled: “Yukon to St. John’s.

Megan encouraged children to keep on fighting. Her video, “Will to Survive”:

I am thankful that children have resources like the BC Children’s Hospital. I am thankful that medical students choose to specialize in pediatrics. I am thankful that children have other children to look up to.

Regardless of illness, trauma or tragedy — positivity will carry children through thick and thin.

Logan and Megan, you are both an inspiration.

I admire your dedication to your own health and to the health and spirit of others.

With all my heart. ❤

Learn more: